Following my previous post, I just wanted to talk a little bit about this passage (Matt 5:13-16). I would have found the verse myself, but it was late and I just wanted to jot down my thoughts quickly, so thanks to Richard for telling me what the reference is for my previous post!
I know some people would interprete the verse to say that we as Christians must be responsible for our behaviour or be a stumbling block to others or worse, risk losing our salvation if we don't exhibit characters that shine for God. What I find with a lot Christians is that the emphasis on striving for holiness and what's right is heavier than the emphasis on why we became Christians in the first place.
Granted there are a lot of reasons why different people call themselves Christians. Some think because they are born in a Christian family, they are Christians. Others think because the country they live in has a Christian heritage, that makes them a Christian. And some others think because they are living a Christian lifestyle (going to church, praying, doing good works) they are a Christian. To me, a Christian is one who seeks to know the Lord in an intimate way. One who strives to have a genuine authentic relationship with the Lord. One that bears his soul to the Lord. And through that relationship, a transformation takes place and a person is changed inside out, not outside in. To me, The Light Of The World shines from within and throughout. As Nicky Gumble (Alpha Speaker) said something to this effect, "going to church doesn't make you a christian, just as going to McDonald's doesn't make one a hamburger". The Light of the World shines because he or she has met with God and has experienced the overwhelming grace of God.
Sometimes that transformation takes a long time for some because of the harsh background that they come from. That transformation is corelated with how easily that person can come into a genuine authentic relationship with God. We live in such a broken world, that type of relationship does not come naturally for most people. It takes healing and inner change and growth for an individual to come to that place of relationship.
So to me, that Light is not about works or doing good but it's about the conditions of our souls/hearts. To me, the salt in the verse (Matt 5:13) is the passion in our hearts for that restoration of a beautiful relationship with God. A soul without that passion or fire is as good as dead. The good works is an end result of that intimate relationship with God that others cannot help but see because light cannot be hidden no matter how you try.
We are a moral agent because we have the law of God written in our hearts (Romans 2:14-16)) and both Christians and Non-Christians have that, but doing right and being good in itself doesn't necessarily restore our relationship with our Father in Heaven and neither does it free us from the bondages of sin.
There's no denying that we are a moral agent, we are created by God in His image and God is a moral agent, but does that mean that we should not integrate psychology which has its origins in humanistic views in our spiritual pursuits? This will have to be my next serious post...
18 comments:
For me, being holy, being a light to the world, means living in a way that exemplifies justice and goodness. While we have rituals which help to remind us, to guide us on our way – true holiness is much more than simply following a prescribed lifestyle, actions, and behaviour. It must be who we are, not simply externally, but internally as well.
I think it is the difference between being a mirror and a lamp. In the bright sun, it can be impossible to look directly at the mirror as it reflects the sunlight. But, internally, it has no light. At night it is dark – it has no internal light.
Whereas a lamp, shines from within, not just from without (like the mirror).
Transferring back to humans, a person can be a mirror or a lamp. We may stand proudly in our churches, do good works and admonish iniquity, but when out of the light of the church, they grow cold and shine no more. Or we may be lamps, some are bright, some are dim, but all illuminate even when we are outside the light of the church.
Any of this making sense?
So to you, the light is a holy lifestyle that is illuminated from within, internal & genuine, reflecting the changed person that we are from our relationship with God?
Can you clarify - I'm not sure what motivates the drive to lead a life of goodness and justice. Is it for the attainment of salvation or is it from gratitude and submission to our Lord that allows the Holy Spirit work in our lives toward transformation?
Finally, I like the mirror and the light analogy. Will keep that one for future use if that's ok with you?
You can use the mirror / light analogy. I rather like it too. It came to me as I was composing my response. Besides, can I stop you from using it?
I believe that all people are instinctively called to be holy, whether they can name God or not.
As you quoted before, "The law of God is written in our hearts."
Richard, when you mention in the comment in my previous post that "if we fail [to be holy] then we shall be lost". So I think you also believe that there is an element of choice to be holy, of which we will be made accountable. I believe that does not affect our salvation though, but our rewards in heaven. Salvation cannot be earned by personal holiness, but is given through accepting the gift of grace through Jesus Christ who died in our place. Not quite sure if that's your view too.
I suppose it's the case where we are called to be holy (the law of God written in our hearts) but we don't necessarily choose to be holy 100% of the time and so will never make it to God's standard of perfect holiness even if we tried our hardest.
Perhaps I see it that we have lost our relationship with God therefore we fail to reflect holiness, rather than if we fail to be holy we will be lost.
But agree that "light of the world" in Matt 5 is very much related to our reflection of the character of God, which is Holy but perhaps we differ in our underlying interpretations ie. our doctrines?
There are differences between how we view salvation. I do not view accepting Christ as any indication that you are saved. For me, Christ’s death was for the salvation of all humankind - death and eternal separation from God is not longer the only alternative. Christ’s death restored our right to be with God - but does not guarantee a place with God. You must be holy and worthy of a place in the presence of God.
How does one accept Christ? Not by word. Not by signing on the dotted line. It is by living a life that is holy. So I believe that even those who are not Christian, if they are holy, will have a place with God.
I believe that Christians have a truer experience of God than non-Christians, but I do not believe that holiness is the exclusive domain of Christians (and history can provide numerous examples of very unholy acts carried out in the name of Christ).
I can only accept that one has accepted when Christ when I see that they bear the fruits of a Christian life -that is why some people are lamps and others are just mirrors. A tree is known by it fruit, even if a tree does not know its name, we can recognize it by its fruit.
Of course, this puts me in conflict with John 14:6: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."
I cannot accept that Christianity is an exclusive club for a select few and too bad for the rest - when I was younger I believed that way, but as I grew older, I could not.
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. – 1 Corinthians 13:11.
This is not to say I discarded my faith, but rather I let it grow with me. The saddest thing I find are those who abandon their faith because it stopped growing when they were 6 or 7 or 8. I am significantly less literal about the Bible than I once was (caused by increasing historical understanding and more abstract ways at looking at things), although, I am probably even more conservative than I used to be (though less rule based).
I suspect these ideas are very different from your own. To the best of my knowledge, I am in conflict with fundamental teaching regarding certain aspects of God and my faith. A few hundred years ago, I probably would have been burned for apostasy - yet I do not feel apart from God. I have lots of questions for Him. I find that too many people want to assign arbitrary limiting boundaries for Him. On the other hand, there are others who are liberal and loose in their views of God and seem to fool themselves into believing that morality is relativistic, and anything, when done with a smile, is acceptable.
I may not have all the answers, and I don't necessarily believe the answers people give me, but I believe the answers can be known.
We definitely do differ in our views of salvation!
What you are saying then is that we can deny Christ, and the work that he has done in defeating death for us, be an atheist, be 99.99% morally good or holy (but still 0.01% short of God's perfect holiness) and still go to heaven?
I believe there is ONE truth, and God's truth is not arbitrary, but yes, different approach to hermenuetics causes many "truths" out there. But, the manuscript of the Word of God is God inspired and reveals the ultimate truth.
I suppose that's our lifetime goal to discover the fullness of God, but the the bible is not ambiguous on the fundamentals spiritual issues like Salvation.
Yes, there are historical findings that may seem inconsistent with the bible, but in time, all truth will be revealed. What we now see or have is incomplete and our understanding of what we see in the natural is incomplete.
I believe the bible is God breathed and is the revealed Word of God for us as a map to understanding His ways.
Therefore for me to believe that one can be saved without personally repenting of one's sinful nature and accepting Jesus Christ personally goes against these verses in Romans:
Romans 10:9-10 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your hert that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto rigtheousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame... verse 13 says "For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved". (BTW, this is how one accepts Christ and is saved. What follows is sanctification process... the holiness transformation. Can one lose his salvation if he does not live a holy life thereafter? I believe the question is, did that person ever truly repented and truly gave his life to Jesus initially.)
Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Whilst I believe that the bible does not contain and cover everything about God and His creation, it is a reference for checking on whether our views of God is accurate of the being and person that He is.
I'm sure we'll have lots more to talk about!
Even within my own faith tradition I would be considered a heretic (trust me when I say I am easily able to turn people of faith against me - at least in the short term).
I do not believe that confessing and accepting Jesus is sufficient.
You must in earnest lead a holy life.
Would you agree that a person who confesses Christ, but leads a life that is 99.99% against the teachings of God, would be welcomed with open arms. I do not know what will happen to the atheist, or Hindu, or Budhist, or Mulsim, or Zoroastrian, or whatever. But, I cannot believe in a God who would abandon a sincerly just person just because they did not confess Christ.
The God I believe in is a God who loves and cares for His creation. I cannot imagine He would condemn those who have never gotten to know Him - but I can believe that He will condemn those who know Him and reject Him.
We can have lots of discussions and lots of arguments and work against one another. Or, while being mindful of our differences, we can work together. We will not always see eye to eye, nor will we agree. But, I believe that if we all earnestly seek the Truth, then we cannot go wrong.
As for my view of the Bible (more heresy, I am afraid): rather than seeing is as "God breathed", I view it more as a record of the Jewish experience of God.
My own church has the following to say (and it does not support me):
In His goodness and wisdom God chose to reveal Himself and to make known to us the hidden purpose of His will (see Eph. 1:9) by which through Christ, the Word made flesh, man might in the Holy Spirit have access to the Father and come to share in the divine nature (see Eph. 2:18; 2 Peter 1:4). Through this revelation, therefore, the invisible God (see Col. 1;15, 1 Tim. 1:17) out of the abundance of His love speaks to men as friends (see Ex. 33:11; John 15:14-15) and lives among them (see Bar. 3:38), so that He may invite and take them into fellowship with Himself.
Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For holy mother Church, relying on the belief of the Apostles (see John 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:19-20, 3:15-16), holds that the books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.(1) In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him (2) they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, (3) they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted. (4)
Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings (5) for the sake of salvation. Therefore "all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind" (2 Tim. 3:16-17, Greek text).
You can read the whole thing here. (Which will reveal the faith tradition I was raised in and continue to practice in. I hope it does not offend you, nor cause you to consider me defiled with the dead and counted among those in Hades - Baruch 3:10-11, or Psalm 88 4-5).
Richard, I don't think it is my place to judge or take offence. That's a matter between you and God. You have the facts before you to make your own mind. It does not make me think any lesser of you, if that's what you mean by "considering you defiled with the dead". All I can say is, if we continue to sincerely search for the truth, it will be revealed for the bible says, “Ask, and it will be given you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you.” But, we still will have to test these with the Word of God. I don't know how you will find truth if you don't believe the Word of God is the absolute truth. what then is absolute truth to you?
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. AMEN.
I believe in Truth, but I question what I am told by men. I cannot identify the tree, but I can identify the fruit.
I think everything can be known, but I want to be sure that what I know is true - not just convenient.
The Apostle's Creed... that's something we have in common.
I agree with you to the extent that we do have to question man's interpretation of the Word of God because the Truth is in the manuscript and not necessarily the interpretation. And, yes, we judge a man by his fruits because in Luke 6:43-45 it says 43"A good tree does not bear rotten fruit, nor does a rotten tree bear good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by its own fruit. For people do not pick figs from thornbushes, nor do they gather grapes from brambles. 45 A good person out of the store of goodness in his heart produces good, but an evil person out of a store of evil produces evil; for from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks." However to me, that is not inconsistent with my view of salvation and the process of sanctification.
I think without the study of hermeneutics it is difficult to come to an accurate interpretation of the actual manuscript and it is hermenuetics is therefore important. Otherwise every man and his dog will have an interpretation of their own.
I believe the bible is the map for the salvation of our souls and does not necessarily deal with every question of living principles. I believe living principles can be found in the bible as well as in our observation through social science.
2 Tim 3:16-17 says, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." Therefore I don't believe it is a Jewish account alone although many of its authors are jewish. I believe the gospel is for both the Gentiles and the Jews (see book of Romans-my favourite BTW!).
BTW, I believe God is so loving that He is so patient with us with man's rebellion. He could have wiped us all out in one second, yet, He patiently waits for us to return to Him, to Accept Christ, to Repent from our sins, to have a relationship with Him like Adam and Eve had. Even in when He comes and rule on earth, He waits for those who have not turned to him for 1000 years before He finally judges everyone for good. Now, I think that's a loving, compassionate and patient God. God is Holy and cannot compromise on His holiness. He provided a way out through Christ and it's FREE but yet, not all will accept that they cannot be rightheous on their own strengt. To say that one has to strive for holiness for salvation is like saying that we can attain Godship within ourselves, without Christ.
I can understand how it is difficult to accept that though. Man do not feel comfortable to be indebted to someone and not have to PAY their way through things. We find it very difficult to accept the FREE gift of salvation through Jesus Christ because our shame and guilt drive us to want to pay for our wrongdoings. It's the same independence streak that drove Adam and Eve to fall because they wanted to do life on their own, thinking that if they eat of the tree of good and evil, they can.
I can totally understand that because I have to keep check of myself constantly that I am not running my own life, but to be totally dependent on God for everything. It's a constant battle.
Some people are very concerned about minutiae and detail and focus too much on the differences causing rifts between people.
There is no question that differences can be significant. And it is not always possible to simply gloss over differences. On the other hand, some people are too fanatic about the differences.
As an example, the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches split about 1000 years ago over the question of the filioque - there were other issues, but this is cited as the straw that broke the camel’s back, so to speak.
I like to take my cue from 1 Corinthian's 1:10-13:
I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you be in agreement and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same purpose. It has been reported to me that there are quarrels among you, my brothers and sisters. Each of you says, "I belong to Paul," or "I belong to Apollos," or "I belong to Cephas," or "I belong to Christ." Has Christ been divided?
Or from Mark 9:38-40
"Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us." But Jesus said, "Do not stop him. Whoever is not against us is for us."
Dear Richard and Mum2One
Both of you obviously come from a different premise to debate so well on fundamental issues such as salvation, bible origins, etc. I have enjoyed the debate, but perhaps, here, I'd like to suss out some good points from both beliefs that are worth noting.
From Richard's end, the idea of a life devoted to God as an essential mark of a Christian is important and all true believers must embrace this practice of walking close to God.
From Mum2One, it is important that Christ be accepted personally in one's heart as a fundamental step to salvation, or Christianity is futile. Also, the Bible as God-breathed serves as a revelation to God's heart and plans.
To both, I would say, all your points are good and the discourse is worth the while, but it may also lead to no end, because the fundamentals and premise are different to begin with. By sussing out the goodness of both arguments, I hope you can both come to a common platform to agree to disagree, and to accept the goodness of both beliefs.
I do hope we will begin to redirect our thoughts to walking closer with God, acccept Christ in our hearts deeply and read the Bible as it is, with all its wonderful teachings.
Yes, Mother-Superior, agree that we come from very different premise. I am actually interested to know the basis of Richard's view becaue I think it's important for us to be able to know why we believe in what we believe rather than believing in something that people tell us... so in that sense, Richard and I are quite similar.
One last question for Richard: So, where would [spiritual] Truth be found in your view, if the bible is not the final authority on such a thing and is only a jewish account.
Is Truth out there in the open for everyone to see or is it hidden? Like you said, Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father, except through me".
So isn't that an explicit claim to what Truth is? And if that is not true, doesn't that make Jesus a liar or a lunatic? If he's neither a liar or a lunatic, which the facts show is quite unlikely, then wouldn't what he claim be Truth?
mother superior: didn't realize others were following this discussion. Nice of you to wade in and play peacemaker. However, I never viewed this as anything other than a friendly discussion.
You are right, we can debate this endlessly without resolution (mostly because I have no final answer - like Socrates, I am a humble man looking for truth).
mum2one: yes I believe the truth is available to all. I do not believe God hides Himself from everyone - I believe He has revealed Himself most fully to the Jewish people, but that does not mean I believe He has revealed Himself fully to the Jewish people.
I am also not a moral relativist - good is good and evil is evil.
However, I am exploring God as much as I can. I believe that all can be known - not necessarily immediately, not necessarily within my life, but I believe we should never stop trying to know. For me there are no heretical questions. There are questions that can be dangerous if they are not asked with the right spirit and if the answers are not sought in the right way.
I remember a council of Anglicans (Epicopalians) a few years back who voted on which parts of the Gospel sayings attributed to Jesus were authentic and which were editorial additions. I thought it quite a shocking practice. I also recall the head of the United Church in Canada a few years back (ok, more like 8-10) saying he did not believe that Jesus was the Son of God.
People have many different ideas and we must take care and guard against deceit and lies. On the other hand, we must also not artificially constrain God to some arbitrary limit.
As I commented earlier:
Christ’s death was for the salvation of all humankind - death and eternal separation from God is not longer the only alternative.
I believe that Christians have a truer experience of God than non-Christians, but I do not believe that holiness is the exclusive domain of Christians.
I cannot accept that Christianity is an exclusive club for a select few and too bad for the rest.
That is about as definitive as I can get. I may change my position in future to move closer to the truth, but for now that is where I stand. This puts me at odds with my own faith tradition.
Taking a sabbatical?
Haha.. Richard, you can call it that. I've been on a 3 wks holiday to Spore and HK and just got home and trying to settle back into some kind of swing of things but for the first few days we had to catch up on our zzzz as we were on the go all the time! Sorry... I thought I did mention it but maybe it slipped my mind. Had so much to do prior to leaving. Will be returning very soon! Will drop a line in your blog when I show again!
I thought you had mentioned going on a trip as well, but I couldn't find the reference (maybe I didn't look hard enough) - so my hazy memory assumed it was for a week or so.
Hope you guys had a fun time. Sometimes holidays, which are supposed to be relaxing, end up being stressful.
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